An Index to John Robison's Land Rover Service Thoughts

The Supercharged Range Rover (c) J E Robison Service

The ex-Buick V8 that Land Rover sold in America from 1987-2004 was never known for its reliability.  However, things took a sharp turn for the worse in 2002, and the last Discovery engines appear to have been doomed from the start.  Here are three articles about internal problems in the V8s:

V8 engine failures - slipped liners and more - from 2009

Should you rebuild a failed Land Rover motor? I have an article about that situation here that covers the decision process

What's the latest on top hat or flanged liners? This article tells all you want to know about the flanged liner overhaul

Discovery II models also have a problem with frame rust.  We first began to see this in the spring of 2014, when we saw several trucks whose rear frames rusted right through over the winter.  These vehicles seemed more vulnerable to rust than the earlier models.  Read this article to find out why, and what you can do about it.

Are you thinking of restoring a Land Rover?  This article shows some of what's involved.  This article explains the difference between repair and restoration, two very different processes.

If you drive a Range Rover Sport or LR3, read this story on differential failures

And if your supercharged Rover is losing power - read this

Programming keys for your Land Rover is here

(c) J E Robison Service

John Elder Robison is the founder of J E Robison Service, independent Land Rover specialists in Springfield, MA.  John's shop has supported Land Rover owners since 1987. They are experienced at all aspects of service, repair, overhaul and restoration.  Find Robison Service online at www.robisonservice.com or on the phone at 413-785-1665.

Should You Rebuild or Replace Your Land Rover V8?

That is the question facing more and more Discovery II owners as their engines age.  Land Rover’s Buick-designed aluminum V8 engines were never paragons of reliability; engines in the last P38 Range Rover and Discovery II models are arguably their worst.

There are three common failure modes.  Most common is the overheating failure, where the engine consumes coolant for a while and then overheats whenever it’s driven. Sometimes people fail to catch this in time, and the engine is driven till seizure.

Land Rover V8 with block failure behind the liner.  Coolant scours the piston clean

I've got several articles on liner failure online.  Here is the latest one.  This story explains the process in detail.

The next failure starts with oil pressure loss. The post-1998 oil pump is integrated into the front cover, and it’s prone to wear out over 100,000 miles.  If the pump merely wears you get low oil pressure, and a light at idle.  That can actually be fixed with a new front cover.  However, it’s often accompanied by worn main and rod bearings.  We’ve also seen the thrust faces break off the center mains, and either of those failures will necessitate engine overhaul.  If the pump actually fractures internally you can get total loss of pressure, and engine failure if the warning light is ignored.

The gear in this oil pump broke into pieces

The final failure is unacceptable motor knocking.  Sometimes this comes from lifters or rocker shafts but more often the noise is deeper inside - in the pistons.  We’ve also heard heavy noises from the lower end. The piston skirts wear and the motor starts knocking, first when cold and then all the time.  There’s no cure for this short of complete overhaul.

The only cure for excess piston skirt clearance is new pistons

It’s said that the production tooling had worn out but Rover continued to use it.  However it happened, the result was a series of engines whose internal clearances were at the wear limits before they even left the factory.  Internal balancing was abandoned to save costs, and finish quality dropped. Internal stress increased as the rated power was raised; first in 1999 and again in 2003.  The final straw was extra heat from leaner running; these motors were beyond their limits to achieve post-1997 emission compliance. 

Where the engines in older Rover models often went 200,000 miles or more, these final series motors seldom hit that mark. Most fail by 120,000 miles and a few don’t even reach 60,000. They seem to have gotten worse with age.

So what do you do about it?

Over the last decade, used Land Rover values have fallen and repair costs have risen.   Short block engines cost just $1,000 in 2004; by 2013 they were $6,000+ if you could find them. Long blocks - with the oil pump and heads - are closer to $8,000 Even so, the repair decision remains easy on a Defender, where vehicle values are usually above $50,000 and holding.  No sensible person would scrap a Defender for mere engine failure.  The situation is different for Range Rovers and Discoveries because those vehicles may be worth less than $10,000, and total repair costs can easily exceed that number.

If you’ve got a Rover whose engine is on its way out you basically have three choices:

• Scrap the truck;    
• Install a used motor;
• Rebuild your motor, or buy a rebuilt motor.

Some people will read this and ask, what about a different motor, a Chevy or Toyota conversion?  If you've got an old Rover, and you live in a place that does not have emission testing, that is an option. Unfortunately most 2000-newer Rovers in America are subject to emission test, many through the OBD port, and an engine conversion will not work for them.  Your conversion options are mostly applicable to 1995-older trucks without OBD II.  It's also worth noting that a high quality engine conversion is often 100+ hours of work, so there is no cost savings to this route if you pay to have the work done.

If the Discovery is “just a car” to you, the scrapyard option may look attractive; people in that position tend to move on to other brands of car.  Major repairs are what separate the serious enthusiasts from the weekend dilettantes.  The weasels get a can of gas and a match, and get ten grand from the insurance company.  A few good men take their own ten grand, and do a proper repair.  Then they go out and burn the gas, chasing action through backwoods and beaches. 

If you are dedicated to Land Rover, and like the separate frame/live axle design of these trucks, you know there is no present-day equivalent.  As an off-road platform the built-up Discovery II outperforms the Defender in many situations, with vasty improved civility and much greater family acceptability.  If you agree with all this, and your truck is in good shape otherwise, the most sensible option may well be repair.

That leaves you with a choice of engines.  I’m often asked about used motors for these trucks, and I am never in favor of that idea.  The reason:  any used motor you find is going to be 10 years old at least.  If its not worn out, it’s going to be well on the way.  Worst of all, any used motor is going to retain all the design flaws the motor you have now has, and it may blow up a month or two after installation.  When I look at the cost of used motors and the effort it takes to put them in I think you’d be nuts to choose that route.

If you’re still thinking about that notion, just remember that your late-series Land Rover V8 was a fatally flawed design.  What sense does it make to put another flawed motor in your rig?

To me, the only option that makes sense is the fitment of a flange-liner motor with a new front cover; one where the late series design deficiencies have been addressed.  That is the solution that leads to long term reliability.

I’ve written several articles about the use of flanged liners to fix overheating in these engines.  When that technique is combined with new pistons and an updated front cover, and the motor is blueprinted and balanced you end up with a rugged and smooth running engine that will last a long time. 

A rebuilt Rover engine, ready to install

Robison Service has been rebuilding engines like that for several years; it’s the only way we do Land Rover V8 motors now.  Other companies in the UK and the USA are offering engines with various combinations of parts and technology.  In my opinion that is the way to go.

There are still a few “old style” short blocks in the market with the original Land Rover tube liners.  I suggest avoiding those motors as they have all the flaws of the original engines.

Now for the final question:  What will it cost:

*** SPRING 2016 UPDATE: The total cost, parts and labor, to rebuild one of these Land Rover V8 motors, including removal, teardown, overhaul and refit; fit flanged liners, and do all the other work that's typically needed runs $12-15,000.  It's a significant commitment and there are no good shortcuts.  ***

A set of pistons, flanged liners, bearings, and other parts to rebuild a short block will run a bit more than $3,000.  The machine work to rebuild a short block is substantial.  Here is what we do in our shop:

• ·      Tank clean and bead blast the block
• ·      Remove the old liners and check for cracks
• ·      Repair the cracks
• ·      Check the block for straightness, corrosion, and other damage
• ·      Machine the block to accept flanged liners, and install the liners
• ·      Bore liners to match the new pistons
• ·      Rebuild crank and rods
• ·      Line bore block if needed; deck cylinder head surfaces;
• ·      Balance rotating mass
• ·      Assemble short block

We can change displacement from 4.0 to 4.6, or something a bit larger.  Upgrade costs can be anything from $1,200 up.  Other shops may follow different steps, or a subset of these steps.  Not all blocks are rebuildable; a few are too damaged from overheating.  Expect the total cost for a rebuilt short block to be in the $5,000-6,500 range; more for custom work.  You can rebuild the block you have (that's what we do most of the time) or you can buy an exchange block, already built.  

Then you get into the rest of the job . . . 

Add a couple thousand more to rebuild the heads, replace the front cover and take care of the other rebuilding work.  That gives you what rebuilders call a "long block" - a complete motor less the covers, accessories, brackets, hoses and wiring.  Those too can be purchased or made.

A wise owner looks at the ancillary items – things that should be attended to when the motor is out. New water pump, hoses, motor mounts are just a few possibilities.  You may need a radiator, or AC work, or a steering box and lines.  Those costs should be added in for a first-rate job.  You should also consider cosmetics - do you care how the engine bay looks?  If you do, this is the time to refinish or re-plate under hood pieces while they are all out and apart.  The change may be striking:

A restored D90 engine bay

Finally there is the labor to do the job; expect this work to consume 30-40 hours at whatever labor rate prevails in your area; more if you get into detailing or custom work.  Jobs like this typically cost $11-14,000 in my part of the country, as of fall 2014.

It’s expensive, for sure, but it’s the only repair that’s going to last.  If you have a Rover V8 and you want to preserve it I suggest giving this plan serious consideration.

1995 Range Rover Classic atop Killington Mountain

Note:  The advice in this article applies to any 1987-newer Land Rover with V8 engine.  If you have a pre-1999 engine you may not need the flanged liners but the rest of the job is essentially the same.  Owners of older cars should also consider a diesel conversion, something that is not possible for those of us with newer vehicles in states where emission testing is a requirement.

Here are three articles about internal problems in the V8s:

V8 engine failures - slipped liners and more - from 2009

Should you rebuild a failed Land Rover motor? I have an article about that situation here that covers the decision process

What's the latest on top hat or flanged liners? This article tells all you want to know about the flanged liner overhaul

Discovery II models also have a problem with frame rust.  We first began to see this in the spring of 2014, when we saw several trucks whose rear frames rusted right through over the winter.  These vehicles seemed more vulnerable to rust than the earlier models.  Read this article to find out why, and what you can do about it.

Are you thinking of restoring a Land Rover?  This article shows some of what's involved.  This article explains the difference between repair and restoration, two very different processes.

If you drive a Range Rover Sport or LR3, read this story on differential failures

And if your supercharged Rover is losing power - read this

Programming keys for your Land Rover is here

(c) J E Robison Service

John Elder Robison is the founder of J E Robison Service, independent Land Rover specialists in Springfield Massachusetts.  John has been part of the Land Rover community for 28 years; since the marque’s 1987 return to North America.

Supercharged Sports that suddenly stop charging

A few weeks ago, I had a strange and curious experience with a Range Rover. It started with a simple warning light, and the usual request. “Can you reset my check engine light so I can get a sticker?”

Why do so many people think these lights come on just so they can be reset?

What possible purpose would that serve?

I explained that we’d have see what fault codes were stored, at which time we could decide what to do about them. In most cases, when you see a check engine light, you need a repair, not a reset. Codes mean many different things. Sometimes, they point to specific repairs. For example, a “replace Thelman wire” code is self-explanatory. You replace the Thelman wire. Other times, codes are more vague. “Fuel mixture out of range” can mean most anything, from air leaks to snoot problems.

This particular car had a code for inoperative cam adjusters, which was strange, because Supercharged Sports don’t have cam adjusters at all. We cleared it, and it came back right away. We looked closer at the engine, to make sure it had not grown cam adjusters on its own. It hadn’t.

Every now and then, mechanics run into situations like these . . . codes that don’t make any sense at all, yet will not go away. When that happens here, we look to see if a software update will fix the car. We use our test system to get the software version and we compare that to the latest version Land Rover lists for that particular vehicle. If there’s newer software, we install it. When we tried that, we found something even stranger.

The vehicle had software for a non-supercharged Sport installed, and the computer was telling us it had never been re-programmed. Either the car had been running around for four years with wrong software, or the computer was lying. Which was it?

After some interrogation of the motorist associated with this particular vehicle, we concluded that the software was probably original. How they made it through four years of operation, only complaining about a check engine lamp now, remained a mystery.

We downloaded new and correct software, and the problem vanished. The cam adjuster faults disappeared, and all tests were normal. We felt great pride in a job well done, and handed the vehicle back to its owner. Unfortunately, this particular Sport did not stay fixed.

“My car was in the passing lane, doing 70, when it lost all power and the check engine light came on. I coasted to a stop, shut it off, and started it again, and it was normal. That’s happened every time I drive to New Haven, and I’m getting scared to take my truck on the highway. What’s up?”

Did the car have an aversion to New Haven? I’ve seen such things before. “Bring it in,” I said, and we’ll see what the codes tell us. A check revealed a P2601 code, which points to a failure of the pump that moves water through the supercharger when you get on the throttle. His seemed to be failing. But why now?

A check of Land Rover service bulletins held the answer:

Land Rover Technical Service Bulletin #LTB00041, Rev 2

Reduced Power Under Load

Possible DTC P0096 and/or P2601 Stored

AFFECTED VEHICLE RANGE:

Range Rover (LM) Supercharged 6A198058 to 7A261419

Range Rover Sport (LS) Supercharged 6A901924 to 7A109767

CONDITION SUMMARY:

REDUCED POWER OR MISFIRE AT HIGH ENGINE LOADS

Situation: The customer may complain of reduced power and or a misfire at high engine loads and road speeds, with the possibility of Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) P0096 and/or P2601 stored. The electrical harness power supply and ground for the auxiliary coolant pump may be cross connected in connector C3006. The pump will run backwards causing the Engine Control Module (ECM) to reduce power to prevent damage because the pump flow is low. The auxiliary coolant pump will be degraded under these conditions.

Action: Should a customer express concern, modify the wiring at connector C3006 to the correct positions and install a new supercharger coolant pump as part of the repair if either the fault codes or the incorrect wiring is discovered following the Repair Procedure outlined below.

We checked, and this fellow’s car did indeed have the reversed wiring. A swap of the wires and a new pump, and he was on his way.

How does this situation come to pass? I spoke to Tony Gill, who heads Land Rover tech support at Autologic in the UK. He suggested a few possible answers.

This car seemed to have the wrong software put in at the factory, As a result, it may have never tried to use the auxiliary pump because the engine controller didn’t know it was there. Non-supercharged Rovers don’t have this pump. Of course, that does not explain how this truck went four years looking for cam adjusters that were never there . . .

It’s also possible that the pump was strong enough to push coolant through the supercharger backwards, against the flow of the regular water pump. It may have done that for all this time, and finally decided to fail.

We may never know the full answer, but it does appear to be fixed.

The moral of this story . . . check your software. Even in new vehicles, mistakes happen. And some of them take a long time to find. It’s shocking to me that there are four-year-old vehicles out there with wiring that was backwards from Day One, but it’s indisputably true.

That is the wonder and magic of British Motorcars.

The last word on Land Rover liner failures - I hope!

Note:  This story was written a few years ago, but it's even more true today.  Robison Service is building 4.0, 4.6, and oversize Land Rover engines using the latest flanged liner technology.  Call us at 413-785-1665 or write robisosn at robisonservice.com if you'd like to talk about YOUR engine project.

*

I have written several articles over the years, describing the liner problems in Land Rover V8 engines. No matter what I write, the damn engines continue to fail. And we’re seeing more and more of a pattern. These engines are, as best I can tell, failing more frequently than before, especially in the last of the Discovery II rigs. Where earlier motors tended to fail on end cylinders, these motors are blowing out the middle cylinders. That led us to wonder . . . is there a new problem in these late engines?

Last week we decided to find out.

We just got a new CO2 laser up here, and our machinist Steve Dutcher was looking for some action on a lazy Friday afternoon. Some people would go fishing, or even weasel hunting, but Steve had other ideas. He cut a Land Rover engine block in half, just because it was there.

When he did, we finally got some hard answers to what’s going wrong in these motors.

Let’s begin by looking at a brand new Land Rover short block. You might call this the “pre-failure” picture:



In this shot you see the aluminum block, with steel liners, and aluminum pistons. As you can see, the steel liners are tapered at the top, sort of like you’d bore a countersink hole if the engine block were a piece of wood. . . .



Now lets jump to the late model block Steve cut in half. He removed the liners before cutting this block right through the middle of the third cylinder bank. Check it out:



This block had a middle cylinder failure. There was no visible problem with the liner but it failed a pressure test on the middle cylinder. When we took the liner out, we found the crack you see circled here. Take note of what a subtle defect this is . . . you can barely even see the crack, but it’s enough to kill the motor. Here’s a closeup of the 1/4 inch crack that cooked this block.



The block cracked from the liner wall into the coolant jacket from the stress of the head bolt. Here’s a shot of the deck that shows that relationship. In fact, if you look close, you can see how the depth of the crack corresponds to the depth the head bolt is threaded into.



Here's a closer view, with my finger for perspective. The blue circled crack is visible to the left of my fingernail



Here’s another interesting shot. In this image you can see the step that prevents the liner from sliding down into the crankcase on these newer motors. In this design, the liner can’t actually move more than a few thousandths of an inch unless they failed to seat it against the step at the factory. What does that mean? It means the stories of "slipped liners" in these newer engines are probably incorrect. The issue is not movement of the liner (which can't happen in this example) but a failure of the block wall behind the liner.



This shot shows that post-2000 model year liners can’t move very much at all but the engines fail anyway. What gives? A little bit of thought gave us some answers.

The liner is tapered at the top where it meets the head and head gasket. For that reason there is no gas or pressure tight seal between the liner and the block. Therefore, when the cylinder fires, some combustion gas gets behind the liner. If there’s a crack back there, out it goes and you know what happens next.

Your coolant gets displaced by superhot combustion gases, the engine temperature skyrockets, and in the blink of an eye, your Rover is assuming the British Position on the back of a tow truck. And you are facing a ten thousand dollar repair bill.

How do these failures happen? It sure looks like the stress from the head bolts is causing the blocks to crack. I don’t know why this is happening now; the aluminum may be more brittle, or the head bolts may be stiffer. Perhaps longer or shorter bolts would help.

Now that we know what’s happening, it’s clear that top hat liners will fix this problem once and for all, even in an engine with cracks in the aluminum. The flanges on top of the liner will seal tight against the head gasket, preventing any combustion gas from getting between the liner and the block and blowing things up.

This picture shows the difference. The left cylinder has the original liner. The right cylinder has a top hat liner, which cannot move in the block. In addition, the head gasket now seals against the liner for a firmer and more positive combustion seal.



Why doesn’t Land Rover use flanged liners? My guess is, they cost a few dollars more and carmakers are notoriously cheap. It’s also possible that there’s an issue with the steel liner expanding at a different rate than the aluminum block and heads.

How about the engines that rap at idle? I’ve had several late model Discos at the shop with noise complaints. In two cases, dealers told the drivers they had noise from liners moving up and down, and they suggested the motor was about to fail as a result. One dealer actually got the motor hot and heard it rap, at which time he sprayed the side of the block with a hose and the rap went away. He told the customer that was evidence of liner movement.

Actually, it wasn’t. These photos make it pretty clear that late model liners have nowhere to move. The hose test simply showed that the noise went away when the engine block was cooled – in other words, the noise was triggered by thermal expansion.

Steve and I sorted that noise question out on another engine a few months back. On that motor – which had exactly the same hot rap – we found the piston skirts had collapsed in about ten thousandths of an inch. That was enough to make them rock when they got hot, and they rapped good and loud.

On that engine we expanded the piston skirts and refitted the pistons. No more rap. But did that repair need to be done? Loose piston skirts would not lead to a failure. I’ll bet that motor would have run 25,000 miles with that rap, maybe a lot longer. In any case, new pistons are the fix. Liners are not involved at all, unless the block were to crack when the head bolts were cinched down one more time . . .

While were talking noises . . we saw a few engines whose secondary air valves had failed, and they also rapped. If you didn't know better you'd swear that secondardy air rap was coming from within the motor. And we still see engines with rocker shaft issues and lifter issues where the raps will fade in and out as the parts rotate while the engine idles hot.

I’m glad we’ve finally got some positive answers about these latest failures. When we rebuild engines here, I’m thinking we need to do flanged liners in the middle cylinders, and maybe all eight cylinders. The only drawback to that is going to be cost – it’s going to make the cost of redoing an old block almost as much as the $5,000 cost of a new one. But if the flanged liners last and the factory ones fail, that’s still smart money.

Like everything else, time will tell . . .

And one more thing before I go. In October I wrote about some later blocks that failed from premature corrosion. Here's a view of the freeze plugs on this motor. As you can see, they are pretty rotted but the aluminum block itself is good. Check your freeze plugs if you do an overhaul. It would suck to lose it all for a two dollar metal disc.